Erika Berenguer is a senior research associate at the Ecosystems Lab at the University of Oxford and Lancaster University and has studied the impacts of deforestation in the Amazon. She joins us now from Oxford. Erika Berenguer, welcome to the program.
ERIKA BERENGUER: Thank you very much.
LIMBONG: All right. So, now, climate change and deforestation can be a pretty big subject to tackle, so I kind of just want to start with the basics. How dire is this situation, and how did we get here?
BERENGUER: The plans actually look really good and really strong, which is a welcome surprise. Lula has been putting the Amazon at the center of his government, saying even that maybe the Security Council of the U.N. should be shifted from wars to climate change, as this is the greatest threat that humanity faces in the 21st century. However, the scenario that he faces is really challenging. So during the Bolsonaro administration, we have seen him cutting budget off the environmental agency and off the environmental ministry. So he finds a government that has a very small budget for fighting deforestation. And as well, he faces a Congress that is quite conservative, quite pro the development of the Amazon.
BERENGUER: There was a recent research that showed that 80% of Brazilians consider it a crucial part of their identity to have the Amazon within our country. So most people are going to say, yes, I'm pro the conservation of the Amazon. The problem is when we go to the nitty gritty on how that is done, then we face a backlash that comes especially from a very big lobbying Congress, which is what we've called agricultural lobby, which is done by politicians that have tight links to large farming, basically for export of both meat and soy in the Amazon. And most of those farms have expanded illegally, relying on illegal deforestation.
BERENGUER: Brazil has been dominated by fake news, a tsunami of fake videos and photos and memes on WhatsApp constantly. So a strong communication on the importance of conserving the rainforest and what the government is doing for it, it's key, but also what Brazil needs is international help, and that is already happening. So that is actually a good sign. So Norway and Germany both have said that the funds that they have allocated for the Amazon fund, which Brazil has had since 2008 to help finance the combat of deforestation in the Amazon, that was suspended during the Bolsonaro government because deforestation was increasing, Germany and Norway already said, well, the money is active again, and that's because of the signs that your new government is giving that it will be strong in fighting deforestation. So that is actually really positive news, and something that is really necessary for Brazil to be able to fight deforestation - money.
BERENGUER: I would say that that's a pretty 19th- and 20th-century economic view. The Amazon, it started to be developed in our traditional ways of development in the '70s, during the dictatorial government, and then large farms were allocated to the region. But what happened is that all those profits stayed in the hands of very few people, and that's why we don't see development in the region. So actually, this is not an argument that holds true in the Amazon. What we need is better distribution of wealth and to realize that in the 21st century, for the combined climate and biodiversity crisis, we need a new development strategy, one that involves keeping the forest healthy and keeping the forests extended.
LIMBONG: That was Erika Berenguer. She is a senior research associate at the University of Oxford and Lancaster University. Erika Berenguer, thanks so much for speaking with us today.
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